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Bot should queue up orders!
Spiritbob
#1 Posted : Monday, March 16, 2015 11:10:23 AM(UTC)
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Its very easy for us to get detected if we act out our moves/actions inbetween a set interval. I believe that's how they detected heartbuddy hence the MASSIVE banwave. Hearthbuddy was not your daily bot, so I suggest this to be implemented asap, because I believe we are already in their ban list, question is are they going to ban us now or later.
This will also fix the issue we have with bots - when the board is full, typically the bot can't finish his moves, but now even on full-scale boards, after queing up his orders, all it would take is 3-5 seconds to execute them, and even if time runs out, they are already queued up so it will still pass through even if the button explodes. (Excluding targetting minions which appear after deathratthle and all those shenanigans, just straight forward action queue up). Silverfish usually takes 5-10 seconds to calculate the best play, but I don't know why but Hearthranger takes a lot of time to process that information and use it. Still the set interval between actions I believe to be the biggest flaw in botting and its detection.


I propose 3 changes that are all better than the current situation:

A) Make the delay user configured, so that each bot can be customized, that way we will no longer have something in common between us and we will have our own distinct timers, making tracking who is a bot and who is not a bit more harder. (Provides minimum protection, just some minor distinction, but still easily trackable.)

B) Randomize a delay between X to Y seconds on each new turn, making it pretty hard to track, but still the difference is that real players have a new delay PER ACTION, while we have PER TURN, thats why i believe C to be the best.

C) Queue up orders as stated above, try not to use delays, or use smart delays inbetween queued up orders (Between deathrattle effects or secrets or anything that has a resolve. First order will be to "see" the resolve, like checking what secret there is by dropping a fake minion, and then continue with a second queued order, depending on the outcome. This is only if the bot "wishes" to check the resolve. Example would be killing sylvanas, but you have the option of ignoring her right?) Many players I believe think what to do first, and then just do it on the go, and act accordingly if there is a special situation like a deathrattle minion or a mirror entity in play. Not sure if this is possible, but if it is, blizzard will then have no way of tracking us or even distincting us from real players (if we add some sort of smart delays, i'm 100% sure there will be no way for us to be distincted from real players, putting into consideration the option of the bot, to fake human behaviour.)

EDIT: If somehow the bot queues up the orders too fast, you can always add a random delay from X to Y at the start of each new queued up order, that way it retains its effectivenes and even adds yet another amazing layer of defense against tracking. Make sure that the random generated delay (X to Y) is removed if the bot's processing of information on the field takes longer than the delay itself, because then we just lose time.

Example: The delay is 4 seconds, and the bot takes 3 seconds to decide what to do, then we wait the 4 seconds stated by the delay, because 4>3. (Total amount of time to act: 7) If the bot however has a random delay of 5 seconds, but takes it 30 seconds to decide what to do, after finishing deciding, he skips the delay phase, because 30>=5. (Total delay time is now 30, no point to add more.)

You can make many mathematical tricks here, making it even more complex for tracking, by substracting the delay from the time the bot finished calculating stuff, if the delay is higher than the needed time for calculations, to form a new delay.

Example: Delay is 3 seconds, time needed to calculate board & moves: 2, substract 2 from 3: Answer is 1, now that 1 becomes the new delay, which was formed by substracting a random delay from X to Y (Notice the complexity.) So we use that delay, instead of the 3 seconds. It will also speed up games to the maximum as you can see, because the total amount of time needed for the bot to act would always be the random generated delay, only if the time the bot took to calculate stuff is less than the actual random generated delay (or equal to it).

If all of this is to be implemented with various tweaks and optimizations behind the scenes, because of potential backdooring, Blizzard will have no way to distinct us from real players by just analyzing some logs, looking for similar timings. They will be forced to make an anti-cheat, or to find a much harder alternative way to deal with us. Maybe looking for similarity in the patterns of how we flash our cards and etc...
3 users thanked Spiritbob for this useful post.
masterwai on 3/16/2015(UTC), yann510 on 3/17/2015(UTC), uberp00ter on 12/28/2016(UTC)
JoyAdmin
#4 Posted : Monday, March 16, 2015 1:44:34 PM(UTC)
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Hi Spiritbob, thanks anyway but I don't agree with you about more random interval will make bot safer, and I totally don't agree with like 'you're already listed on ban'.

What you mentioned is very less helpful to make bot safer.

From what I know, every time mass ban the main reason is other bots injects game and send wrong data package directly to game server, it's almost a pure technical issue.

With v.3.0.0.0, bot already can adjust behavior during turn timeout, and you can turn off enemy turn calculation if your computer is slow.

HR is already the safest bot you can have, and we'll keep it to be the safest one.





1 user thanked JoyAdmin for this useful post.
pavelsimut on 5/16/2015(UTC)
Spiritbob
#5 Posted : Tuesday, March 17, 2015 2:09:09 PM(UTC)
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JoyAdmin;24484 wrote:
Hi Spiritbob, thanks anyway but I don't agree with you about more random interval will make bot safer, and I totally don't agree with like 'you're already listed on ban'.

What you mentioned is very less helpful to make bot safer.

From what I know, every time mass ban the main reason is other bots injects game and send wrong data package directly to game server, it's almost a pure technical issue.

With v.3.0.0.0, bot already can adjust behavior during turn timeout, and you can turn off enemy turn calculation if your computer is slow.

HR is already the safest bot you can have, and we'll keep it to be the safest one.







Do you really think that we are any safe with a set timer hanging on our necks? I mean if a player reports us with the time of the game and all the needed information, they just flash the logs and that person gets banned. It's super obvious who is botting and who is not. We play minions on set delays, attack on set delays, I mean come on. Maybe I was wrong about the massive ban, but the fact is that the timing plays a big role in both identifying who is a bot and detecting a bot. If you have a different opinion, okay, I'm just here to show you another page of the book.
1 user thanked Spiritbob for this useful post.
uberp00ter on 12/28/2016(UTC)
LittleBotterKid
#6 Posted : Tuesday, March 17, 2015 7:17:23 PM(UTC)
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I also dont agree with the timer change. Blizzard will not ban you because your bot takes EXACTLY X seconds and X milliseconds to play one card and the same time to drag a card to attack an enemy.. I really doubt that this information would be in their database. Some players might want to think about their decisions, like Lifecoatch. Famous HS player who ropes on nearly all his turns.

The one thing that you didnt think about that i personally think that is an important question related to this topic, is the cursor. Since HearthRanger's cursor is invisible, blizzard MIGHT be able to detect it when you help the bot and theres 2 cursors on the screen (1 for HR and 1 for HS). Its the one thing that ive been thinking about because i coudnt find out how the bot's cursors is working. Or maybe if Blizzard would watch your game and they woudnt see any cursor (coz its invisible) MAYBE they could catch you like that. BUT then they would also have to spectate/re-watch all games and it would take way too many resources for them. To kinda fix this issue, ever since i've started botting i turned off the option for my friends to spectate me.
JoyAdmin
#7 Posted : Tuesday, March 17, 2015 11:54:20 PM(UTC)
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I'm sure for the game, the cursor is 'visible'.
LittleBotterKid
#9 Posted : Wednesday, March 18, 2015 5:53:33 AM(UTC)
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I'd also like to know what type of bot HR is. Some people said that it is not an injection based bot. So is it a color bot, reflection bot or something else.
wilsoz
#10 Posted : Wednesday, March 18, 2015 7:32:35 AM(UTC)

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LittleBotterKid;24542 wrote:
I'd also like to know what type of bot HR is. Some people said that it is not an injection based bot. So is it a color bot, reflection bot or something else.

pretty sure its memory based
ralphy
#11 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 3:01:13 AM(UTC)

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I took a quick look at the bot and it does what everyone does. It injects an assembly into Hearthstone.


Injection bots are safe as long as you check warden to make sure it doesn't scan for your bot, or you randomize the code.

The only way you will get an injection free bot is if you give the bot full control of your mouse and keyboard.
Golddieb
#12 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 4:23:55 AM(UTC)

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Please remove the picture. We don't need to give Blizz any information for free.
uberp00ter
#17 Posted : Wednesday, December 28, 2016 11:13:16 PM(UTC)
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This is a really interesting thread and I'm a bit blown away that people seriously have no issue with the fact that thousands of us are making actions at the EXACT SAME MILLISECOND in every match. Of COURSE blizzard is able to see the time of our movements. Every single move you make is sent to their server with a timestamp, it's the basis of its function! Because this program uses safer methods of controlling the system we should take user reports seriously, right? I can't imagine how many times users are reported each session, playing against this bot is so incredibly obvious that you could easily rack up 10+ reports in a few hours. Again, every. single. action. is made at the same EXACT time, a 4 second interval. On top of that, minions on a clear board are always played left to right, and EVERY TURN the "end turn" button is pressed in another 4 second interval.

I LOVE this program and have utmost respect for everyone who built it. It's unreal, I just paid for a license. I don't intend this to be a flame, just voicing my concern. It's hard to believe all the amazing work that's been done on HR, yet years later there isn't a simple option to randomize the action intervals and/or speed up the bot significantly. Is there any options out there to speed up the actions AFTER it calculates (which can take all the time it wants, I just wish this was more fluid!). Love you all hope to get some fresh discussion going.
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