Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Mulligan and combo maker
Athanatos
#1 Posted : Thursday, November 3, 2016 6:52:49 AM(UTC)

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Posts: 72

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 12 post(s)
What seperates a good deck that reaches rank 5, and one that doesn't, seems to be a good custom mulligan, settings and combo file.

A settings file is kind of easy to create and mostly requires experimentation and large sample sizes.

However mulligan and combo files are harder to create, or rather more daunting for someone who doen't already know what to do.
The main detterent, for me as a casual botter, is having to work through the carddb file, finding the codes and makinğ the correct connections between each card.

It would be a huge help, I think, to create a seperate program to automate the creation of mulligan and maybe combo files.

I believe that it would make for an explosive rise in the creation of customised decks and while most will probably be sub par eventually it's destined to make a good deck and files (infinite monkeys with infinite typewriters)
Dre
#2 Posted : Thursday, November 3, 2016 7:10:20 AM(UTC)

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: HSModerator, Registered
Posts: 888
Man
Location: The Netherlands

Thanks: 216 times
Was thanked: 480 time(s) in 315 post(s)
It takes me about 10 to 30 minutes to create a full mulligan file.

AFTER that I spend 2-3 weeks on reading trough my logs from it. Adding special hands to keep in the mulligan, but mostly solving deck-based misplays in combo.txt. while testing over and over each day.

The typing doesnt cost time, even when you have to search for all the cards. I start with all the cards listed in my mulligan file with the ID behind it. like:
Code:
// - H U N T E R --------------------------------
// [1] Fiery Bat (OG_179)        
// [2] Kindly Grandmother (KAR_005)    
// [2] Quick Shot (BRM_013)
// etc


But also this is very quick. just search the card db for the 15 to max 30 cards copy paste and done and after that you can copy from there.

Imo making a tool for this is a waste on a programmers time, because not even 5% of the time i put in the files are in the typing itself. I would rather see programmers who can make these stuff to help out sepe with fixing misplays in the AI and develop features

Other then that there is no possible algorithm that can MAKE a mulligan and combo but itself. Mulligan because the cards you want to keep in your hand can change depending on the meta. For example against warrior you can keep slow carfs. but if the meta changes to face-warriors you cannot. Combo because this requires such amount of accual human testing. Its more of a feeling then science.
sepefeets
#3 Posted : Thursday, November 3, 2016 2:41:04 PM(UTC)

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Posts: 899

Thanks: 1028 times
Was thanked: 584 time(s) in 238 post(s)
Athanatos;42834 wrote:
What seperates a good deck that reaches rank 5, and one that doesn't, seems to be a good custom mulligan, settings and combo file.

You're starting with a very flawed assumption that we've repeatedly corrected many times in the rank 5 thread. A deck doesn't do well because of configs, it does SLIGHTLY better because of them. This is why I require decks to get at least rank 10 without configs before asking someone to make them and we ask people to try new decks without configs. If a deck is strong in the current meta and the bot/ai can play it well then the deck will do pretty well with defaults and then you can spend the time making the configs. Configs just micro-optimize it to play a bit better.

I have a feeling you probably know about HSBToolbox already, it does exactly what you're asking for with HB (HSB, w/e) format mulligans which my SF also supports but it might behave differently than HB if you have a mix of hold/discard rules.

But again, custom configs for crap decks are a waste of time even if you have a tool making it easier. Every deck that does well with defaults will undoubtedly have someone create custom configs for it.
Athanatos
#4 Posted : Thursday, November 3, 2016 5:30:17 PM(UTC)

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Posts: 72

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 12 post(s)
I obviously know much less than both of you, It was my understanding that settings made for a huge difference.

Basically I was thinking about not so much making mulligan and combos for meta decks but rather a tool that a new player, both in hearthstone and to botting can use.

Like I said, I myself am casual at botting as well as the game itself.
I have very few of the cards needed to make competent decks but I would still like to optimize the few decent decks I can make that the bot can actually play well.
People like you guys of course have a much deeper understanding of the coding necessary, the bot's limitations and you can very quickly, easily and intuitively create custom files.
This is not a program meant for people like you.

I'm not suggesting automation like "Hey here's my deck give me a good mulligan file and combo synergies", the individual user will still need to know which cards are best to keep, which to drop, create sets of cards that are best to hold if they come up on your opening hand etc.
What I'm suggesting is a sort of "gateway" for people who know nothing about the card codes and commands required and are either too busy or feel too overwhelmed to even attempt it. Please understand that for non technical people opening the carddb file is kind of daunting.
It would be useful for people just starting out with new accounts after they've gained some packs and the basic decks and their settings are no longer useful to them.
It could also be used to quickly make mulligan and combo rules for a specific arena run that maybe by making custom files will get you just one more win.

I don't know your userbase but just to run some statistics
I can suppose it's likely 50% of your active users create even some rudimentary files
Let's say that 5-10% of them actually open these files and become better accustomed to the mechanisms of the bot
Out of those 1% of them turn out to be methodical thinkers that can milk every ounce of capability a deck has
That would still be positive for the bot as a whole, how big of an impact it would make I don't know and that has to do, as I said, with your userbase.
I realize your personal purpose with the bot is meta capable decks but I'm pretty sure most people using it are poor gold farmers like myself, I believe that's why you are endorsing the basic decks made by Olegrock.

In any case, I made my arguments for it.
Obviously you guys are better suited to answer if it's needed or even if it's useful.

Thank you for your great work and your attention to my suggestion.

Edit

sepefeets;42842 wrote:
I have a feeling you probably know about HSBToolbox already, it does exactly what you're asking for with HB (HSB, w/e) format mulligans which my SF also supports but it might behave differently than HB if you have a mix of hold/discard rules.


No I didn't know about it, I gather it's pretty close to what I'm suggesting.
Dre
#5 Posted : Friday, November 4, 2016 4:53:23 AM(UTC)

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: HSModerator, Registered
Posts: 888
Man
Location: The Netherlands

Thanks: 216 times
Was thanked: 480 time(s) in 315 post(s)
Settings matter but the default settings file which comes with Silverfish is just fine in 99,9% of the cases. There is not much to improve there. You can up the numbers but the higher the number the stronger your pc needs to be.

In all fairness. For basic decks, that consists mostly out of minions, you dont need any mulligan.txt. you can perfectly run these decks and let the AI do the mulligan itself. this happens when you dont have a _mulligan.txt file in your folder.

What sepe says. Files matter, but it's not miracle powder. Can't make a deck with very low winrate suddenly viable. A deck needs to have a decent wr even without files.

If you are just interested in farming instead of Climbing, just load any mech deck into wild, conceed to 20 and enjoy your 75%++ winrate. no files needed
Novicracker
#6 Posted : Sunday, December 18, 2016 5:42:29 PM(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Groups: Registered
Posts: 7

Thanks: 9 times
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Guys all we need to do is build an A.I. engine that knows all the cards in the game and have it run 1M/10000 decks combinations and from that build the combo file and mulligan file plus the setting file. we already have an A.I. engine and a up to date card data base. So now all we need is to build the interface to create the files for us. I mean if anyone know how to build algorithms, then it shouldn't be to hard to have it drop the file setting. I would also have it use the in game desk from the bot interface in order to handle the decks for compiling the output files. ASnd if no one know how to build the algorithm then why not google search for a basic one that can accept plugins.
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF | YAF © 2003-2011, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.130 seconds.